Mr. President

03-18-2006, 03:19 PM

I hate to sound like a negative nancy, because you do have a great undergrad profile, but your chances are about nil of being accepted. A quick overview of my profile for comparison:

*Graduated cum laude with a 3.50 in nuclear engineering
*700+ GMAT
*Member of Mensa
*VP of American Nuclear Society
*President of a religious organization
*VP of co-ed, professional, engineering fraternity pledge class
*Published author with articles on religion being published in magazines and in books
*Volunteered in highway cleanups, homeless shelters, YMCA, libraries, etc.
*Started multiple businesses in my youth, including a web design/computer networking company at 17 that's still running on its own today, 7 years later
*Started a real estate investing LLC and owned two homes at 22 years old
*2 years of work experience in nuclear safety analysis, making $60k+ at 22, getting two raises my first year, and leading a number of high-profile projects

I didn't apply to Stanford or UCLA, but Harvard didn't even interview me. Why? I only had 1.5 years of experience when I was applying. MIT told me plainly, "We like your profile, but we find that you and your classmates will get the most out of this experience if you work for another 2-3 years. We will keep your application on file until 2009, and we urge you to reapply."

Everyone who applies to the top MBA programs feels like a rock star, because in our microcosms, we tend to be the big fish in the little ponds. The people who pursue top MBAs from top institutions are, in general, all the cream of their respective crops. The problem, of course, is that -- though you may be the best of the best where you are now -- you are suddenly competing with 26 year old rock stars from all over the world! And you have to be either pretentious or naive to believe that you're a shoe-in at a top univesity because you have neat little extra-currics from undergrad. Because your competition also has those great undergrad stats as well as top GMAT scores, amazingly interesting work experience, and an extra 4-10 years of LIFE experience that you just don't have.

Basically, apply if you feel you're ready to go to business school, but certainly don't expect to be admitted. With application volumes rising 30-40% this year across the board, the admissions process is getting much more fierce than it already was. And when you're only 21 or 22 with no work experience (MBA applications specifically ask about work experience AFTER you graduated, not before), you're the first to be rejected. It may sound harsh or pessimistic, but it's realistic. I was in your shoes a number of years ago, and I even took the GMAT when I was still an undergrad in 2003. I waited 2 years before I applied, though, and it was still ridiculously tough.

In the end, I was accepted into a top 20 institution that I absolutely love with all my heart and was awarded a ~50% tuition scholarship. It was a long, tough road full of ups and down, waitlists and rejections. Follow your dreams, but realize that patience is rewarded while naive pretention is often met with rejection.

Best of luck, and I certainly meant no offense by any of this.

can you please tell us which program you got into with 50% tuition scholarship? i am curious because i am pretty much in the same shoes:
solid undergraduate
4 year starting student-athlete at NCAA D-I level
700 GMAT
no full-time work experience (only solid finance-related internships)

thank you

I totally agree with you Nuke, and with the admissions people.

In order to get the most out of your MBA, and bring to the most to the class, you have to have experience in order to contextualize what you're learning. Also- the MBA at most schools isn't a lecture based program, but a seminar based program with integrative learning where each person discusses how their experience relates to the subject materials.

I went into a top 50 global MBA program where the average amount of experience is 7 years; which is the same amount I came in with, and am extremely satisfied that I made the right decision in putting it off for a couple of years until after I got some management experience.

Thanks for your feedback.

What both of you are describing is quite the opposite in undergraduates accepted to top universities including Stanford and Harvard which I've talked to.

They had little or no job experience, decent grades, a clear focus and a unique background and got accepted into these top schools.

Nuke, you also don't mention any international experience in your profile which I think is a major plus nowadays with the increased interaction with the far east.

I still feel very ready to apply and have narrowed my choices to 5 schools. 2 top schools, and 3 realistic schools. As for being able to participate in class discussions, my background with my business, at my current job, in student gov't has given me many scenerios to bring to the table.

I have taken my discussion of this to the Business Week forums which is a lot more active. Thanks again guys!

Prez,
By all means give it a go, however as you said international experience is a big factor. I don't think that going on a study tour of China counts as alot of intl. experience.
Living in various cultures for an extended period of time or working extensively with or in another culture count as good international experience.

Besides the east is becoming a stable market, not yet, but getting there, it's not like the heady days back in 1997-2000. If you want to postion yourself for the future, concentrate on the next, up and coming, market.
Remember it took Japan all of 15 years to go from zero to hero to zero again, that's not to say China and India will follow the same curve.

Like I said -- apply if you feel you're ready, but don't expect any admits. Temper your youthful optimism with mature realism, and you'll be just fine once you start getting dinged. And it will happen at least once, I guarantee.

Regarding the undergraduate admits, that does happen from time-to-time; Harvard is actually known for being a tad easier on young people, admitting a handful every year straight out of undergrad. However, with a class size around 1,000, accepting a few undergrads per year doesn't bode well for your chances. The acceptance ratios for Harvard and Stanford range from ~10%-15% (it will be even lower after this year). So let's say they admit 1 in 12 applicants, or 10 in 120. I would not be surprised if only 1 of the 10 came in straight out of undergrad.

With regards to international experience, almost all applicants have this. You forget that you're competing with consultants, Europeans, Asians, etc, etc. Like I said, you are no longer the cream of the crop or the big fish in the little pond when you apply to Harvard. You suddenly find that you're terribly average, and you just hope for the best. This time next year, you will understand what I'm talking about.

My point here isn't to say you can't get in. My point here is to say that you probably won't get in. Look at the averages of these schools. Being admitted out of undergrad is the exception, not the rule. Especially when your GPA and majors are nothing special and you have no work experience.

Enter into this with an eye towards reality, not blinded with the "small pond" mentality that is so easy to fall into before you get out into the real world.

Again, none of this is meant to be offensive. This is meant to be constructive, because you'll copmletely understand this all a year from now; I'm trying to give you a head start.

Good luck!

Whether you get in or not, you are not going to find your learning experience useful without work experience. An MBA isn't law school. Real life work experience is necessary to bring relevance to your education. 99% of MBA programs are like seminars, meaning you will do a lot of group work with seasoned veterans. A professor isn't going to lecture while you take notes. Any MBA can attest to the fact that they have worked with group members with no input. Not that they were lazy, just inexperienced. A student body president isn't the same as a corporate manager. You may think you have something to add to a class discussion but looking at your background, it won't be anything of significant value. You won't get that without experience. Your credentials are very impressive and you would have no problems getting a job that would enable you to get the experience you need.

At this point and considering my future goals, work experience would not benefit me very much in the same way it would the average graduate business school student.

I would think work experience would help those who want to go straight into a company after they get their MBA degrees, but that isn't what I plan on doing. So why would I go into a company and get experience when that experience isn't going to complement my goals?

Pres,
Forgive me for being blunt, but the MBA requires some maturity and experience. You sound like you have a number of fantastic accomplishments, some great qualities and have a bright future, but you're just not there yet. I may entirely be wrong, but I think that the admission staff at any Business school you can get into in 5 or 6 years will tell you the same. You probably could get into a fine school- but like I said- you're going to get a fuller experience out of it once you get more maturity and experience.

Also- remember- it's not just about what the MBA can do for you, but what you can bring to your work group, and how you can contribute to classes (which are seminar style at many schools as opposed to undergrad 'lecture' style). Many of us have been in top MBA programs where we encountered people who just didn't have the maturity to get the most out of the experience, and it shows. Don't you want to the get the most out of your MBA experience? You can only do it one time- might as well make it count when you do it.

Why don't you wait and see how you feel in 7 or 8 years years? In the meantime- don't just tread water. Start your technology company; hell- start 10 of them! Let 9 of them fail and learn from it. Backpack in Asia, Volunteer for the Peace Corps, Intern for a Congressman, read literature, write a novel or a screen play, train for a triathlon, date indiscriminately, then with discrimination. Do great stuff with your life and know there's way more to it than what 3 letters after your name can do to enhance your life.

Even if your plan is to start your own firm, at this point, you still won't benefit from the MBA experience. Looking at your initial post, I don't see anything that says you have run a business for a significant amount of time. Toastmasters and running your own company are two completely different things. To steal a phrase from our resident admissions counselor, your profile just doesn't have the "wow factor" yet. If you had started a successful, reputable business while you were in undergraduate, maybe I would have a different opinion. You would be better equipped for business school if you started your career now and waited for b-school. Business school isn't a "how-to" manual on how to run a business. I started my business when I was 21 while I was still in college. By the time I started my MBA program at 26, I had plenty of stories, failures and successes that I was able to bring to my workgroups. My MBA helped me bring my business to the next level. You have to go into school with a portfolio of experience. You don't have that yet.


At this point and considering my future goals, work experience would not benefit me very much in the same way it would the average graduate business school student.

I would think work experience would help those who want to go straight into a company after they get their MBA degrees, but that isn't what I plan on doing. So why would I go into a company and get experience when that experience isn't going to complement my goals?